Migrating from After Effects + Duik to Synfig for feature project

[jlfilm]

Hi,

my name is Josef, I am a videographer and indie filmmaker from Austria. Recently, I worked on an animated feature, which I scripted, developed and animated by myself over the course of eight years. The movie is called “Der Donaufürst” and is currently shown in Austrian cinemas. Here is the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkpmcLQVdaQ

I made the whole thing using After Effects + Illustrator/Krita + Duik Bassel to make puppets, which I could turn 180 degrees and have layer switches for mouth shapes, eyes and such.

Now, with recent developments in Windows and Adobe, I am trying to move away from these companies towards Linux and FOSS and other alternatives. I have already switched my video business over to Davinci Resolve (Kdenlive is amazing but a bit too limiting for my needs). But I want to create more animated films and maybe build a small animation studio based entirely on FOSS. I have some experience in Blender, which I already used on my project for the backgrounds.

I am now eyeing towards Synfig as my alternative for cut-out animation. You can already see in the trailer how the characters move and are placed in the scenes. I made the puppets once as their own projects and was able to use them again and again for each shot by importing those in new projects.
The characters where build in 3 layers:

1. Overall puppet with their limbs, the torsos had 5 different angles with is a simple layer switch
2. Head, which can do a complete 180 turnaround and have controls for eyebrows and eyes
3. Mouthshapes with it’s own slider (maybe this process could be sped up with papagayo?)

Is it possible to translate that workflow into Synfig? Maybe some of you can asses if such a workflow is feasible or if I should use a different method/software? Do you think it is possible to make a feature like “Der Donaufürst” in Synfig? And what workflow would you use?

Would love to hear from the community. I have already seen some amazing stuff and plugins made by some users which I will definitely check out, but I would love to hear your opinion if I should go for it or if I should find other alternatives. Thanks!

[Svarov]

Hey,

@jlfilm

Recently, I worked on an animated feature, which I scripted, developed and animated by myself over the course of eight years

Oof, that’s a lot of time and effort. Congratulations! Hope your film is doing great in cinemas.

@jlfilm

Is it possible to translate that workflow into Synfig?

Yeah, easy. Your workflow is pretty standard and Synfig has all the tools. Switch layer, cut-out animation (2 different ways: traditional with translate-rotate and bones) and morphing animation for turning things around (you can automate it with the joystick plugin).

@jlfilm

Do you think it is possible to make a feature like “Der Donaufürst” in Synfig?

This is a very hard question… Synfig is a bit… unstable. Crashes a lot. There are some problems with rigging, for example you cannot copy characters with bones or it will mess up your project. The performance is not the best especially with some layers (various distortion effects).

You can check my last two animations on YouTube (link in the profile) to get an idea of what you can do in Synfig. Although my workflow is different, I use tons of converters and animate everything frame-by-frame which may not be feasible for big projects.

[Khemardi]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Based on the style of your animation, I think your workflow could definitely include Synfig. I would recommend using Synfig, DaVinci Resolve, and Blender. You could create your workflow using these three software. If you are completely new to Synfig, you can start learning here:

[jlfilm]

Thanks for your responses! I really appreciate that!

@Svarov

Oof, that’s a lot of time and effort. Congratulations! Hope your film is doing great in cinemas.

Thank you! It’s doing very well locally and with schools (students learn the origin story in elementary school). And it’s great to see that both adults and children love that movie, warms the filmmakers heart.

@Svarov

Yeah, easy. Your workflow is pretty standard and Synfig has all the tools. Switch layer, cut-out animation (2 different ways: traditional with translate-rotate and bones) and morphing animation for turning things around (you can automate it with the joystick plugin).

That’s also my thought but then:

@Svarov

This is a very hard question… Synfig is a bit… unstable. Crashes a lot. There are some problems with rigging, for example you cannot copy characters with bones or it will mess up your project. The performance is not the best especially with some layers (various distortion effects).

Is that also the case under Linux? I also had the experience of Synfig crashing all the time on Windows, but to me it seems pretty stable in Linux Mint. Don’t know if that is still the case with more complex characters.
Performance-wise After Effects+Duik is also very slow. There is no graphic acceleration and the animation cannot be viewed in real-time without pre-rendering it. But that is probably because there are sooo many layers and sliders stacked on top of each other for these characters that it slows down.

The thing I am concered about is not the individual parts but the combination of it all together:
As you said, the techniques themselves are doable in Synfig. I would probably use the joystick plugin for the head and slider for the mouth shapes. But I would also like to put this all onto the body which should ideally be able to rotate (to some degree) AND have an IK. I’ve seen some IK workarounds, since there is no native implementation.

@Svarov

you cannot copy characters with bones or it will mess up your project.

So you are saying that I cannot make a character animation ready and use it in a different project? Wouldn’t that mean I have to rig the character every time I want to do another shot? That seems very tedious tbh.

Your stuff is very cool. You have a unique animation style!

@Khemardi

I think your workflow could definitely include Synfig. I would recommend using Synfig, DaVinci Resolve, and Blender. You could create your workflow using these three software.

Thanks for the recommendation. Love your Youtube-Tutorials btw, I have watched quite a lot of them when researching software alternatives and your videos are the reason I am considering Synfig at all.

It would probably a very straightforward translation from my old workflow:

1. Setting up the storyboard and audio in Premiere
2. Blender for the background plates (I exported still image and sometimes short animations as PNGs for importing into After Effects)
3. After Effects for puppets, animation and compositing

I would change my NLE to Davinci (which I already have done) and Blender will firmly remain in my toolkit.
The question is if it is possible to also do the compositing in Synfig. I mostly did masking for the background plates and lighting effects (like in the trailer shots from 1:08-1:10). I know I can do a ton of stuff in Davinci using Fusion, and I know how to use Fusion, but man, I used layer based compositing for over a decade and I am not a big fan of the node-based workflow of Fusion. Do you think the shading can also be done in Synfig? And how would you go about it?

Thanks again for the responses!

[Khemardi]

Happy you enjoy my tutorials. I need to get back to them; I’ve been slacking off. Ok, so the answer to your question about whether shading can be done in Synfig is yes, but I will always recommend doing your compositing in a video editor. I do share your sentiments about DaVinci Nodes, since I too used to use After Effects heavily and was spoiled by its layer system. When I had to switch to DaVinci, nodes became a problem; they still are… But I’m taking my time to learn everything about them. I’ve realized that there are multiple ways that they can be used. I’ve seen people connect them in illogical ways, but they get the result they want, which boggles my mind. Anyway, as @Svarov mentioned, Synfig does tend to crash under certain situations, which can be very frustrating at times. I can’t speak for Linux since I’ve never used Synfig on that OS.

That said, if you do insist on shading in Synfig, I would recommend doing it to individual layers, then completing it in a video editor. Although that may defeat the purpose. On second thought, for now, just be patient with Davinci. At some point I’ll more than likely do a series on Synfig, Davinci workflow. You can also rig a full character in Davinci, but that’s a story for another day.

[Svarov]

@jlfilm

Is that also the case under Linux?

I cannot say, I am one of those Windows users. But I did hear people say that Synfig is more stable under Linux. Hopefully it’s true.

@jlfilm

AND have an IK

Oh yeah, I forgot about IK. Didn’t use any workarounds myself but yeah, there might be some additional hoops for you jump through to get it working…

@jlfilm

So you are saying that I cannot make a character animation ready and use it in a different project?

No, it’s not that bad. To put it simply, you’ll have to keep your characters in separate files, like Char1.sif, Char2.sif and so on. Then you will need to link them (Menu->File->Import…) into your main project, let’s call it, Scene1.sif.

So instead of just copying your characters into one project and working on them from there, you will have to juggle a bunch of files. It’s not a big deal, but it does make animation process a bit awkward.

@jlfilm

The question is if it is possible to also do the compositing in Synfig

Synfig is both good and bad at compositing. Good side is that it’s very intuitive, you have your group transformation, time management, typical layer-based structure, a bunch of cool filters/blurs/distortions, very easy to work with. I do all compositing in Synfig and use video editor (Shotcut) to add sound tracks.

Bad side is that it imports everything into RAM. If you’re working with a bunch of FullHD animated sequences, you might need a lot of RAM depending on how short/long they are and loading time might increase dramatically. Also, tools for shading are pretty poor/basic. You’ve got your “Shade” layer that’s very simple and “Bevel” layer that’s more interesting but has a bug where it degrades image quality below it the more you use it.

[jlfilm]

Thanks again for both of you taking your time to answer my questions.

@Khemardi

Ok, so the answer to your question about whether shading can be done in Synfig is yes, but I will always recommend doing your compositing in a video editor.

You are probably right. But honestly, having the possibility to animate AND do compositing in one app is a major plus. Because if I do it in the same scene I can adjust animation or compositing on the fly without the need of rendering. If I can get it done in Synfig, it would be my choice. But something like polishing or coloring is something would still use Davinci for, since it’s better suited for that.

@Khemardi

You can also rig a full character in Davinci, but that’s a story for another day.

Haha, yes I have seen the videos. It’s amazing, but it does not seem to be worth the effort. I would probably consider Blender for that, before I would go for Fusion.

@Khemardi

At some point I’ll more than likely do a series on Synfig, Davinci workflow

Yes, please! I would definitely give it a watch. As I said, I am a big fan of your stuff, since you really know how to squeeze the apps to their full potential.

@Svarov

No, it’s not that bad. To put it simply, you’ll have to keep your characters in separate files, like Char1.sif, Char2.sif and so on. Then you will need to link them (Menu->File->Import…) into your main project, let’s call it, Scene1.sif.

So instead of just copying your characters into one project and working on them from there, you will have to juggle a bunch of files. It’s not a big deal, but it does make animation process a bit awkward.

Ok, do you have a tutorial or video on hand that would explain that workflow? In After Effects, I simply had my characters as a Project file. Then I would make a new project and import the character project files. That worked flawlessly, since it would make a copy inside the new project without touching the original character file. What you are describing sounds not that different to what I was already doing. Only difference being that I have to copy the character files every time I do a new shot. Am I getting that right?

@Svarov

Synfig is both good and bad at compositing.

Ok, so you and @Khemardi are both not 100% sure if Synfig is good for compositing. But tbh, the compositing I did on my feature is pretty basic. Yes there are probably some effects I should probably use a dedicated editor for, which would be Davinci, but for some simple masking it should be perfectly fine, right?

@Svarov

Bad side is that it imports everything into RAM.

Probably not an issue. Since I am used to Adobe’s very bad RAM usage, I have outfitted my rig with 128GB. And it is STILL not enough for these apps. I guess it’s more then enough for Synfig?

Another question, that I am unsure of: I really like the animation paths I had in After Effects. I know there is some workaround in Synfig with animation along paths, but could this work in combination with an IK rig?

[Svarov]

@jlfilm

Only difference being that I have to copy the character files every time I do a new shot. Am I getting that right?

Yes, you got it right. For each shot/scene you will need to copy your character files. As I said it’s not a big problem but something you should be aware of. Copying (hitting CTRL+C) any rigs containing bones (or bone/skeleton layers) into other files will result in broken files.

@jlfilm

but for some simple masking it should be perfectly fine, right?

Yeah, I think so. Since you also have a lot of memory there shouldn’t be any problems.

@jlfilm

I know there is some workaround in Synfig with animation along paths, but could this work in combination with an IK rig?

It’s no workaround, animation along path is fully implemented in Synfig and works as you would expect. Unless After Effects does it in some different way… I watched some tutorials and it is similar to Synfig just different setup.

Can it work in combination with IK rig is a good question though. It should be fine, but since I don’t use IK I cannot really answer it, so I am afraid you just have to test it.

[jlfilm]

@Svarov

For each shot/scene you will need to copy your character files.

Got it, great to know, thank you!

@Svarov

It’s no workaround, animation along path is fully implemented in Synfig and works as you would expect. Unless After Effects does it in some different way… I watched some tutorials and it is similar to Synfig just different setup

I think I phrased it wrong, sorry. The way it worked in After Effects + Duik was, that I made an IK for every arm and leg and I had one control null object at the end of every limb I could move around. As soon as I had xy-transformation keyframes, it made an animation spline automatically which I could move around and it even showed the timing for every frame with dots along the lines.
In Synfig it only works like in this video from @Khemardi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF0h8KPdYAM or is there another approach for animation paths?

[Svarov]

@jlfilm

As soon as I had xy-transformation keyframes, it made an animation spline automatically which I could move around and it even showed the timing for every frame with dots along the lines

OK, Synfig definitely doesn’t auto generate any animation splines… I am not gonna lie, this subject is a bit hard for me since I never used After Effects, so I don’t know in which ways you can utilize animation paths there… Can you do it in Synfig? Maybe in a different way or maybe not.

I would recommend you to get dirty with Synfig. Try implementing a very basic rig of some exemplary character. It shouldn’t take you long, you will see how bones work, whether those IK workarounds are useful, etc.

[jlfilm]

Alright, thank you again for answering.

@Svarov

I would recommend you to get dirty with Synfig.

Absolutely, that is my plan, will do. I just wanted to know if there are some dealbreakers before I dive into learning a new workflow from scratch. Mastering After Effects + Duik was very time consuming and I want to be sure before I commit to learning the ins and outs of this tool. After your answers I feel confident enough to make the jump.

I will let you guys know and post some stuff when I have something to show.

[MGFP]

@jlfilm

I want to create more animated films and maybe build a small animation studio based entirely on FOSS

I’ve also have envision such idea.
A group of creatives producing inspiring projects though FOSS. I think it would also be interesting if the projects themselves became Open Source, releasing all assets and projects files to the public.